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XRAY - Model racing cars • View topic - One-way / Carpet / Foam Setup Thread

XRAY - Model racing cars

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 19:30:24 
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 22:12:06 
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 05:56:57 
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My wife let me out to play for a few hours today up in the Gettysburg PA area. Of course I had brought my car and she was kind enough to drop me off at The Coliseum track in Frederick, MD. The track is a nice sized indoor smooth HIGH grip asphalt track using tennis court grade asphalt treated with WD40.

Running the car with the I had dialed in on our local carpet track proved to be perfect on the high grip asphalt. Then curiosity took hold of me and I swapped the Jaco Purple/Orange & Double Pink foams for some CS32's & 27's to maintain the balance with a softer rear tire. The ride height and droop were reset, I went down 2 teeth on the pinion, the tires were sauced 1/2 up front & full in the rear and onto the track it went with the Chameleon 2 motor freshly cleaned and lubbed.

Surprisingly, the super stiff setup was balanced, but the car drifted somewhat and didn't turn as sharp. A quick change from the Parma Alfa to the Mazda 6, from ackerman position #3 to #2 on the steering blocks, from 63% to 67% transmitter dual rate, and from 1/2 suace on the front tires to 3/4 sauce proved to be the ticket. The final of the day had the car on rails, without a hint of traction rolling or over steer and corner speed was great.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 20:31:48 
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 20:20:34 
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I've split the setups into two seeing as they have evolved somewhat differently between stock and 19t/mod during last weeks testing/race day:





I decided to use a double pink/orange & double pink tire combination for the race day this past Saturday as I had planned to race 19t. Unfortunately, everyone else decided to run stock. :? On race day, the tire change worked ok, but I felt the car was not loose enough with the stock motor in and the front tires were wearing quite fast for a stock setup. I have a feeling that the stock setup would fair much better on corner speed and tire wear if I switched at least the fronts back to purple/orange. I'll be testing the stock setup with a full purple/orange & purple combination this week.

During testing before Saturday, with a 19t, I noticed that the front end was diving a little too much on corner entry with the softer front tires. I decided to add .75d of front anti-dive using the .75 suspension holders and had a choice between slightly raising or lowering the front roll center. Raising it slightly seemed to make sense and I accomplished this by using the .75 holders in the top hole on the rearward end of the pins. Bad choice. :oops: The effect was definitely noticeable on race day as the car didn't dive as much as it used to, but mid corner steering also suffered. I didn't want to take the time to change the holders again, so I removed the 1.5mm shim under the outer camber links to lower the roll center some. It worked to give just enough mid corner steering (could have used a little more though), but the car was a little slow to react on turn-in coming into a large sweeper at the end of the straight. Opening all holes up on the front shock pistons cured that. The last problem of the day had to do with a little too much on power steering. Lowering the rear ride height to be equal to the front cured it.

Lesson 1 learned: Changing the front roll center in small amounts has a very noticeable affect on the cars mid corner steering with a one-way setup and several other setup changes will most likely be needed to bring everything back into balance if this is done. :wink:

Lesson 2: Softer tires (at least in the front) make the car too tight with the slower corner speeds generated from stock motors.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 18:36:35 
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I know it’s been awhile coming, but I just simply haven't been happy with the recent changes I've made to the one-way setup and the results they produced.

But... :wink:

I've finally figured out the setup black hole that I had fallen into. All it took was looking back to my old FK04 setup that was pretty dialed before switching to the FK05. What I found is that with a one-way high traction setup, tied with the 2mm front anti-roll bar at the top of the list of key ingredients needed is the need for a lot of caster.

In the last month, I had changed my front arms bulkhead positions to produce 1.5 degrees of anti-dive, which also reduced the overall caster to 4.5 degrees. Before then, I had always run the front arms flat with an overall caster of 6 degrees from the c-hubs. The reason that this is critical has to do with the inside front tires camber and resulting contact patch on corner exit. With the 2mm front anti-roll bar, the front end stays pretty flat while cornering and the inside tire has more load on it to provide both front end traction and steering. The key for increased corner exit steering is to get the inside tire to gain enough positive camber to where its contact patch is on the outer edge of the tire. This part of the inside tires tread is closest to the corners apex and therefore has the tightest steering arc of any part of the car touching the ground.

Simply put, 4.5 degrees of caster is not enough. In the past month with the 1.5d anti-dive, I had to make a few setup changes in order to cure the front end push. The changes included raising the rear ride height, standing up the rear shocks one hole and increasing the steering EPA/dual rate 5 points above my preferred setting to minimize mid corner scrubbing of speed. However, I soon found that these changes also caused the car to "plow" through the corners. The motor had to work harder, the gearing had to be reduced for less rollout/top speed, the front tires were wearing faster than normal and I was loosing too much speed mid corner (costing me 2 to 6 tenths per lap, depending on how smooth and consistent I drove).

Our latest track layout is pretty technical, although not too tight, and with stock motors you are almost always turning the steering wheel and on the gas, except down the front straight. However, at the end of the front straight there is a tight chicane that emphasizes hard deceleration (notice I didn't use the word braking :D ) and corner entry turn-in. For this reason, I decided to reduce the anti-dive from 1.5d to .75d instead of eliminating it totally. This fine tuning change can only be accomplished by using the .75d suspension holders and the resulting overall caster was therefore increased from 4.5d to 5.25d.

Before I made the changes and hit the track, I performed a cornering simulation test on my setup station to record the camber settings of both front wheels while the steering was at full lock. I tested corner entry, mid corner and corner exit and the results looked great. Full lock with my preferred transmitters steering EPA/dual rate and using ackerman position #3 on the steering blocks comes out to 16.5d on the inside wheel and 14d on the outside wheel. The static camber was set to -0.25d as I am also using the shortest front upper link position at a steep angle for a lot of camber gain. Corner simulation test results:

Front wheel camber at full lock with 4.5d caster (inside wheel / outside wheel):

Corner entry: -0.5d / -1.5d
Mid corner: 0d / -1.5d
Corner exit: +0.5d / -1.5d

Front wheel camber at full lock with 5.25d caster (inside wheel / outside wheel):

Corner entry: +0.25d / -2.0d
Mid corner: +0.25d / -1.5d
Corner exit: +1.5d / -1.5d

As you can see with the little bit of added caster, the inside wheel is always leaning into the turn. And what’s impressive is that its positive camber gets really aggressive as the front end lifts up when the power comes on and the car squats down on the rear outer tire at corner exit. An added benefit is that the outside wheel has a little more aggressive camber on corner entry where it’s needed as the cars weight is shifted forward.

On to track testing...

A little side note: At the beginning of testing, I mounted standard purple compound tires on the front and magenta's on the rear. The result was a lot of over steer from the middle of the corner out, although without any loss of rear end traction. I had expected this, and my goal was to see if the front inside tires outer edge contact patch was indeed affecting the steering arc. I then mounted plaid (purple/orange) tires on the front and the results of the front tires outer edge compound change from purple to orange were very noticeable. Not only did the on-power over steer go away, but the difference in steering arc from off-power to on-power disappeared. The car's steering became very predictable to where I could blip the throttle anywhere throughout the corners and the car would stick to its line and not push or over steer.

With the car's front end tamed, I worked a little on shock positioning/dampening, rear droop, and dialing in the right amount of neutral throttle trim for forward roll at mid corner. The results were a slightly softer rear end with the shock angle brought down to the same as the front shocks, a quicker transitioning front end with only one hole open on the pistons, greatly reducing the rear droop to be equal with the fronts at 1.5mm, and a ton more mid corner speed as I had both the ESC's minimum throttle setting, and the transmitters throttle trim setting, at maximum. This provided a pretty fast roll with the throttle trigger at neutral, but the car never pushed around even the tightest corners and just ate up every corner exactly on the line that I put it.

By the end of the day, I was able to stay on the gas a lot more during each lap and ended up increasing my pinion gear by two teeth. The motor never came off the track over 180F and didn't fade until the batteries started dumping after the last three 7 to 8 minute runs with IB3800's.

Now I reserve the right to stating any actual on track performance increase, until after I've proven it on an upcoming race day. :wink:


.


Last edited by teamgp on Thu Nov 17, 2005 21:48:41, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 19:16:08 
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I forgot to add that after the final three runs, I did notice that the outer edges of the front tires were wearing a little more than usual. The car was a dream to drive though. I plan on testing the car with an increase in front static camber from 0.25d to 0.5d today to see if it clears this up without affecting the steering negatively.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 23:25:11 
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Score!!! :D

Increasing the front static camber to -0.75d was the ticket. The front tires now wear flat, and the steering didn't suffer a bit. If anything, the car turns in slightly tighter now due to the increase in negative camber on the outside wheel. Before putting it on the track, I did another cornering simulation on the setup station and here are the results:

Front wheel camber at full lock with 5.25d caster and -0.75d static camber (inside wheel / outside wheel):

Corner entry: +0.25d / -2.25d
Mid corner: +0.25d / -1.75d
Corner exit: +1.5d / -1.75d

It is interesting to note that only the outside wheel's camber is affected as the chassis rolls. I believe this is due to the fact that I am only using 1.5mm of droop all the way around. Therefore the inside wheels arm can only travel down a relatively small amount when compared to the amount of upward travel that the outside wheels arm can move as the suspension compresses.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 16:05:23 
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FYI,

A few pics of our current local carpet track configuration can be found on the website.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 07:15:40 
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I made a few changes to the setup which yielded really good results. Simply put, the car holds the line mid corner better and steers more consistently all around for increased driver confidence (which I really need :wink: ).

* Switched front tires from Purple/Orange to Double Pink/Orange
* Took out .75d of anti-dive for a low roll center flat front arm configuration (pair of .75 suspension holders in middle bulkhead holes)
* Changed from red to light red front springs
* Tightened the rear diff up just a tad (few mm turn)
* Increased rear toe-in from 1.5d to 2.0d (really helps to keep the rear end planted when bumped in traffic :wink: )
* Increased front camber from .75d to 1.0d
* Increased rear camber from 1.25d to 2.0d
* Switched body from Protoform G6 to Protoform Mazda 6

Results:

* Average lap times decreased by 2 to 3 tenths
* Recorded personal best time on current layout ( 29@5:08 )
* Posted fastest lap record by anyone on current layout (10.008 - still looking for that 9.x :D )
* Fellow XRAY driver in Intermediate class TQ'd and won his classes A main with a slightly different config (red springs on front, but layed down one hole; 1mm rear anti-roll bar; 1.5d of rear toe; Chrysler 300M body; as you can tell, he loves a loose handling car)



NOTE: I made a mistake and geared the car too low during the main. :? The setup reflects the gear I should have used.

By the way, I've been remiss in not showing my appreciation to the man who gave me the inspiration to try a one-way setup based on his evaluation of my driving style. Thanks Mr. Anderson! (the guy mentioned above who TQ'd and won the Intermediate class A main at his very first race after taking a break from racing for the last six months) :shock: :D 8)


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 Post subject: Thank you Teamgp
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 04:52:58 
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As the guy mentioned in the above post I wish to formally thank Teamgp for his help. He had my car for a few weeks while I was finishing up my tennis season and set it up. Except for the changes he mentioned that I made to his setup the car was a dream to drive. I was going fast without the usual drama associated with pushing a car to MY limits. I scored a personal best 27 laps, TQ'd and won the A Main in my division. Not bad for not racing in about 6 months. Now if teamgp would only listen to me about his motors he would be winning the A Main instead being third. :)

I also want to say that Teamgp is an example of a good guy finishing first. When he first started he, like me, was very frustrated at the lack of "help" from the "fast guys" at our perspective tracks. So we started collaborating, passing to each other our practice days results and what knowledge we did have. But he also started to research suspensions and how they work. He started trying everything and documenting the results. Some were crazy, some made sense and we had some "spirited talks" about some theories. But he would still try it just to see what effect it would have. But whatever the outcome, he would always share the info. He started sharing on this and several other forums. Not just answering questions and helping to solve issues, but explaning WHY it would work. Something the local "fast guys" never would do. They would just say "try this". Not explaning why, just "try this". In other words they would feed us but not teach us how to fish. As he continued he got noticed by more and more people including Mario Hudy. He became a moderator here and soon became sponsored by Xray as a member of their factory support team. Not for being a world class high profile driver, but by being simply a good guy who shared the wealth with others so they would not be as frustrated as he and I were in the beginning. Thanks Guy for teaching me how to fish.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 08:41:24 
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True.... TeamGP keep up the good work. I like to share whatever I learn too. Brings more people up to a certain standard and racing becomes even more exciting.


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I only have one area on the track now where I can't get a consistent fast line and seem to lose ground. Our track has a chicane at the end of the straight, that has a sharp right turn proceeding into a flowing S turn. It seems that the car scrubs a little too much speed at the apex of the sharp right turn and takes a little more time to accelerate into and through the S turn.

After thinking over the many options to choose, I settled on retreating a step that I had made recently. Loosening the rear diff just slightly seemed to be the ticket.

With more time than I needed on my hands, :shock: :wink: I also decided to try something that the current "fastest" guy uses on his non-XRAY car. I increased the rear spring rate from purple to red (fronts are light red stood all the way up) and leaned the rear shocks in two holes more for a very progressive rear spring rate and subsequently aggressive steering feel. I didn't change the piston/dampening at all. The results were noticeable with the rear end transitioning a hair quicker through the chicane. My lap times became a little more consistently low as well.

KT, one of the local RC America sponsored aces who runs the standard front diff, :wink: took it out for a full pack and went seemingly faster than I did. He's my regular A main guinea pig driver (Thanks!). I have to give him kudo's and state that he's a great test driver with the skills to adapt and comment on any setup. His resulting comments were to leave the setup alone and increase my transmitters dual rate just a few clicks.



We'll see how the all pans out in true race conditions tomorrow. :wink:


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